JCO Discussion Blog

Poetic Titles of Joyce Carol Oates

2011-01-24T09:37:00.000-06:00

by Jane Garrison Ward

A Fair Maiden called
Little Bird of Heaven,
My Sister, My Love, who was
The Gravedigger's Daughter, neither
Black Girl / White Girl or one in a
Blood Mask. Rather one
Missing Mom with
The Stolen Heart hurled over
The Falls.

Take Me, Take Me With You she says; it was
Rape: A Love Story of
The Tattooed Girl.
I'll Take You There to the land of
Beasts in the midst of
Middle Age: A Romance set in
The Barrens, where the
Blonde with the
Broke Heart Blues makes a wish that
Starr Bright Will Be With You Soon.
My Heart Laid Bare with
Man Crazy
Double Delight.

We Were The Mulvaneys in our
First Love when the
Zombie called out:
You Can't Catch Me, if you can.
What I Lived For, oh yes:
Foxfire,
Snake Eyes,
Black Water, and
The Rise of Life on Earth. Yet all become my
Nemesis
Because It Is Bitter, and Because It Is My Heart.

I Lock My Door Upon Myself, separating myself from both my
Soul/Mate and my
American Appetites. Somewhere in the
Lives of the Twins
You Must Remember This
Marya : A Life lived on the
Solstice of the infinite
Mysteries of Winterthurn.
A Bloodsmoor Romance tells the story of the
Angel of Light, that
Bellefleur of
Unholy Loves, the
Cybele of our
Son of the Moning.

Childwold ends with
The Triumph of the Spider Monkey, leaving
The Assassins to
Do With Me What You Will in some
Wonderland, where
them
Expensive People live in
A Garden of Earthly Delights, and
With Shuddering Fall.

"Childwold"

2009-09-06T06:41:00.001-05:00

This is a book review post that I originally wrote for my family's blog. As it concerns "Childwold" which I just recently read, I figured I would post it here as well.

This 1976 novel is one of Oates's relatively early works and is often analyzed as one of her first experimental novels. Oates uses multiple points of view, juxtaposed sections often jumping from one character's viewpoint to another with no prior warning to the reader. The frequent stream of consciousness narrative style makes it sometimes take awhile to figure out which character is the focalizer of any given passage. Not only does the narrative jump from one head to another, but foreward and backward in time as well.

This is the story of a Western New York farm family from the rural village of Childwold down on their luck due to an accumulation of financial burdens which started at the time of the Great Depression. Fourteen-year-old Laney Bartlett lives in a ramshackle old farmhouse with her mother Arlene, paternal grandfather, married sister Nancy and Nancy's children, and a handful of little brothers and sisters of various ages. Laney's father died several years before in a New Year's Day car accident. Since, Arlene has had a variety of different boyfriends, even having children by some of them. Another prominant protagonist is Fitz John Kasch, a well-to-do local citizen turned recluse, who, in a Lolita-esque turn, falls in love with Laney, though it is not clear whether any physical relationship occurs between the two.

The experimental narrative style attempts to capture the self-essence of each character questing for liberation of self amidst the mysteries of life. The relationship of self and other, a common Oates preoccupation, is explored at length, as when Laney wonders "Even living people, other people, how could they be like you, how could they know what you knew, think what you thought?" A correlating theme is that of the gap between our present and past selves as when Kasch thinks back to his time in high school: "My boyhood, myself: gone. I could, if I wished, summon back the high school; but I could not summon back that boy. He is not only gone, he has never been." Upon several occasions, Oates's personal philosophy of the communal nature of life is expressed. This is basically the idea that the self cannot exist in isolation but must come to terms with it's place in the greater scheme of the external world in order to achieve some sort of transcendence. A highly interesting book in many respects, though not one of my personal favorites.

Childwold as seen through The Journal of JCO

2009-09-04T15:59:00.001-05:00

I haven't finished the journal, went on to other things, but one part really caught my attention, the 1975 writings on her novel Childwold. When I first read Childwold, I was very confused. I had trouble figuring out the point of view, which kept shifting. I liked something about it, but I didn't really "get it." I put it back on the shelf and didn't try reading it again.

However, after I read her journal entries from that period, it began to intrigue me. At first she called the novel "Broken Reflections." She talks about the sexual revolution as a disaster for many people.

Girl students are as apprehensive, as miserable, as worried about 'not being loved' as ever before, and perhaps things are even worse now: the offer of marriage still remains THE token of esteem, no matter if they've been living with a young man or not. The emotions seem unchanged, entirely. There is a premature gowing-up of a sexual or physical nature, though. . . .

She goes on to discuss precoucious sexuality as a mark of "relatively uncivilized cultures . . . and constitutes, in species other than man, an evolutionary finesse of some kind" before going on to discuss "Broken Reflections."

Broken Reflections breaks into five points of view certain preoccupations of my own, merged with certain personalities deserving of study, of exploration.

.

That intrigued me, and even though I had picked up on the five points of view, I hadn't understood why she was doing it. I felt I was on to something, beginning to understand one of the least discussed of her many novels.

By July 26, 1975, JCO changed the title to "Childwold: a Romance for Five Voices." She calls it a "prose-poem" disguised as a novel. This again caught my attention! a prose-poem! I loved the idea. No wonder I hadn't understood it! Poetry is more complex than a novel; poetry always requires me to pay more attention to appreciate it fully. She says that the voices haunt her.

Voices. Not even words so much as voices. Laney, her grandfather, Kasch, Arlene, Vale. Five people, five voices. Perhaps they will all be absorbed into one, into the landscape of Eden County itself.

I won't go on to repeat her journal here, but my point is that without her journal, I would never have understood this beautiful work. I began rereading it immediately and found it fascinating it way the voices expressed themselves.

I've just talked myself into going back to the Journal to find more insights into JCO's work.

Today In Literature: A Garden of Earthly Delights‏

2007-09-07T20:00:00.000-05:00

From Today in Literature daily newsleter, Sept. 7:

"Joyce Carol Oates’s A Garden of Earthly Delights was published on this day in 1967. It was her second novel and her first hit, in a prolific, award-winning career which has provoked some to lobby for a Nobel nomination. Others, such as the writer of a recent article in Psychology Today — have placed Oates on their list of hypergraphics, the “midnight disease” of compulsive writers. The current tally of her books stands at 118, with three more due out shortly."

I don't know what "hypergraphics" means, but the phrase "compulsive writers" certainly sounds negative. However, I think they were just trying to be cleaver in the blurb at the bottom of the newsletter. There is another more positive piece about Oates on the site (http://www.todayinliterature.com/biography/joyce.carol.oates.asp).

When I read a novel like The Falls, or The Gravediggers Daughter, as I currently am reading, I couldn't care less about how many other books she has written because I am engrossed in the current work. I would expect that most readers are interested in the individual novels, not how many she has written, as they take you inside people in ways that can be very revealing for readers. The problem her "prolific" career has for me is one of not being able to keep up with her. I can't read as fast as she writes. I am always a little behind this group in reading her new novels. However, I don't mind having that problem, as there is always something wonderful to read on my bookshelves.

I scan the used bookstores for older novels that are not readily available. Last month I found a First Edition of American Appetites with J.C. Oates signature! What a find. I have about 10 of her older novels that haven't read yet because I am so busy with her current work.

Perhaps when reviewers mention how many novels she has written, they are not criticizing her so much as revealing how inferior they feel in not being able to read all she's written!

Actually, since I started this email, I read the article in Psycology Today, and it is not a negative thing, just a condition of the brain being in overdrive. Alice Flaherty, who published a book on the subject in 2004 called it The Midnight Disease. "Hypergraphia is abnormal, but it's not necessarily bad," she says. "For us it is mostly pleasurable. You only suffer when you think you're writing badly."

Well, shedoesn't write badly, so I don't think JCO is suffering! :)

Black Water

2006-01-20T20:25:00.000-06:00

Recently on Tone Clusters, the Joyce Carol Oates Discussion Group, a young student began a discussion of Black Water, and how the Senator's power was detrimental to the young protagonist, Kelly Kelleher. It was a lively discussion, but we seemed to agree that it is the power, the aura of office, and the charisma of artifice that undoes her. Power is seductive, to those with power and to those near the powerful.

When asked if we think of Kelly as a single hapless victim entranced by the power and prestige of the senator or if we think her slow drowning is more a representation of how American society is lulled and slowly drowning in its own obsessively consumerist culture, the consensus was not as clear. The incident could be a metaphor for society's behavior, but it is also reasonable to say that Kelly is complicit in her own fate, as we all are. However, that being said, there is no way Kelly could have anticipated her specific fate when she got in the car with the Senator. She is the victim of the Senator's ambition, which is so powerful that it prevents him from doing what almost any other individual would have done had his/her passenger been trapped in a car under water. The Senator could have tried to rescue her but chose not to. He could have called for help but chose not to. Kelly must have thought he would return to save her or would at least send someone down into the black water to save her. Anyone in such dire circumstances would continue to hope until the oxygen was depleted enough for them to fall unconscious.

I haven't read Black Water in several years, but the horror that Kelly faced in the cold black water stays with me emotionally, even after I have forgotten most of the details of the story. As I remember the early chapters of Black Water, it seems that JCO wanted us to understand Kelly's intoxication with the Senator and the political world of power, and how vulnerable that left her. Kelly could have exerted control, but she chose to go with the Senator. As far as why she did not try to save herself, I may not remember that part well, because my memory tells me that she did try but was unable to get out of the car. I'll have to read it again to see how that plays out in the book.

This story is different from most of JCO's work in that it is based upon easily recognized historical events. When I read Black Water, I could not stop thinking about the very real person who was left to drown when Ted Kennedy panicked and left Mary Jo Kopechne to drown without getting help. At the time of the historical incident, I was young and idealized the Kennedys and could not reconcile his actions with my idealized vision. I tried to understand how the Senator must have felt, must have panicked and must have blamed himself, must still blame himself (justifiably) for her death. It wasn't until years later, when I read Black Water, that I began to think about how Mary Jo must have suffered before she died from asphyxiation.

JCO has the power to take us places we could never go by ourselves.

Upon the Sweeping Flood

2005-09-07T12:20:00.000-05:00

The first time I read Upon the Sweeping Flood, I could not understand
the ending. I now have a hard time reading it, with the crazed
protagonist beating the life out of the boy. Watching the horror on TV
about such things happening on such a massive scale made me think again
about this story. JCO's realistic portrayal of senseless tragedy
captured that sense of horror.

Jane

Psychological Thrillers

2005-02-18T02:57:00.000-06:00

First of all, ignore the comment I made about not being able to figure out how to post. As you can see, I finally figured it out.

I've just recently finished reading all nine of JCO's pseudonymous psychological thrillers, the eight Rosamond Smith novels and the first Lauren Kelly one. I get the feeling that these are not quite so popular as her other works and wonder if anyone here has read all of them. I don't want to spoil them for those who haven't read them but I would like to make a few comments. Though the stories are all different, they do all have a common theme: the double. Quite a lot of them deal with twins, and if there aren't any twins there is the idea of soul mates. There are quite a few grotesque character doubles and the frequency of mirrors is striking. These stories strike me as parodies of the thriller genre, being even more sensationalist, and also parodies of psychoanalysis, taking all the clichés of the unconscious and bringing them to life.

I'd be interested in hearing any other comments on the subject.

Happy reading!

From Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group

2005-01-27T15:05:00.000-06:00

Discussion of The Census Taker

**************

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurie Rendon"
To:
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 12:13 PM
Subject: JCO: Shall we start on The Census Taker?

> Hi friends!
> We talked about doing With Shuddering Fall in
> September (I think it was that one--correct me if I'm
> wrong!).
> Does that mean we'd like to get through By the
> North Gate before then? If so, we could do one story
> every two days. There are fourteen stories, and we'd
> be done by Labor Day.
> Or what?
> Thanks,
> Laurie
>
> =====
> Better Edit!
> http://www.betteredit.net
> laurie@betteredit.net
>
> "Wow, it looks a lot better than it did." --MLIS student
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: JCO: Shall we start on The Census Taker?

> Hi, Laurie. I think it's Bloodsmoor Romance up for September. I'm sure those of us who are really into North Gate can stay with it until we finish all the stories. But we should try to move along through these stories with deliberate speed, so let's do Census Taker. I was struck by the landscape description of the opening scene: the dead, frozen grasses and the frozen tire tracks in the muddy road that leads up to the mysterious farmhouse were very evocative of stasis and deadendedness. There were hints of Faulkner, but I think Kafka was the guiding atnosphere: i.e, man sets out on futile task, expected to abide by a set of arbitrary rules such as no eating dinner with the folks being interveiwed, and he's sent there by a distant governmental power-- in this case the government of Oriskany, the county seat. (John Updike, in a review of You Must Remember This, suggested that the town's name can also be heard as "Oh, risk any!") The futility of the census-taker's task becomes more apparent as the story goes along: in fact, that seems to be the punchline -- or the rude-awakening epiphany of the story.
> Cyrano
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurie Rendon"
To:
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 5:51 PM
Subject: JCO: The Census Taker

> Hi friends!
> This is a story of chaos. Here we have a man trying
> to make reality--people--fit into a neat book. But the
> crazy girl points out that people come and go. Who are
> the *people* of Oriskany anyway? Here we have people
> who don't fit; the head of the household, who must do
> the reporting, is not home, which is a problem, even
> though the wife could tell him the facts. Seems silly.
> Some important people in the family are dead (unless
> the girl is making it up). People eat, but the census
> taker is not supposed to participate. Anyway, who is
> the fifth place at the table set for? The census is
> "very important" and then "not important." The boy points out that all you can believe is what
> you see now, as in the case of the weather. Similarly,
> he says the scene in the photographs is probably
> washed away now. I'm not sure of the significance of the girl's
> mentioning the walled-in world and wanting to sleep.
> She is skinny and pretty in an odd way--is she JCO?
> Also not sure why the man leaves suddenly. Because
> he doesn't want to complete the task, define reality?
> Is he losing his mind, or is he just reacting to what
> he finds unpleasant?
> Interesting to see the comments on the setting and
> symbolism. Also the comment about JCO's older style.
> These are lovely, polite, remind me of Henry James
> somehow, or a framed miniature. I guess the newer ones
> are more stark, in your face. Don't know if that's
> what you mean.
> Laurie
>

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: The Census Taker

> Hi, Laurie. She seems to be a type that shows up in so much of the fiction: the skinny girl. In this instance she is outspoken and seems "demented" to the census taker.
> Cyrano
>

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: The Census Taker (spoilers if you haven't read it yet)

> Reading very carefully this time, I noted the outspoken girl's strong opinions on the futility of giving birth: "I aint going to keep on, no walled-in world, no numbers writ down in a book to stand for me," the girl said spitefully, passionately: "I aint going through the old ways -- not comning from a child to a woman, havin children to keep on with the old ways, sufferin them, sufferin all the agony to squeeze them out into the walled-in world! And sick all your life, and poor,...I aint going through the old ways! I'm going asleep. No cancer for me, I can feel it eating my body already...I mean to have a man, once, to to know that then go on out to the snow and sleep. These people of the world, why, go through the old ways like a horse pulling a plow, going through the ruts. I aint going to do that!" In this monolog, we see again the ruts that appeared at the story's opening -- the frozen ruts that the census taker must walk through on his way to the farmhouse. The girl passionately wants out of the ruts of life as she sees it lived around her, but she also appears to have no hope of ever doing that...being addled enough to confuse the census taker with her long-gone father.
> I haven't figured out why the table's set for 5. There's mother, girl, boy.... Maybe father really does work at the saw mill and will come come for dinner. If so, I still haven't a clue about the fifth plate. There are four deceased family members: the twins, the son killed in a tractor accident the previous summer, and Grandma dead of cancer. Is the table set for the missing? (5, including father, if father has, indeed abondoned the family) Any ideas, anybody.
> Cyrano

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: The Census Taker (spoilers if you haven't read it yet)

> Hi Cyrano,
>
> I wonder if the fifth place at the table (perhaps set for the census taker?) is meant to show that he belongs with these unfortunate people, that he is just as trapped as they are.
>
> I may be reaching ...
>
> Kim
>

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: The Census Taker (spoilers if you haven't read it yet)

> Hi, Kim. I thought one table setting might be for the census taker too, but that's the way the table looked as soon as he walked into the house. Unless they spotted him coming up the road and set the fifth place for him, it seems more like 5 is how they usually set the table. There must be some reason the JCO included that detail. Perhaps to make readers think -- as we certainly are thinking about it.
> Cyrano
>

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 8:34 AM
Subject: JCO: Re: The Census Taker

> It seemed to be a reaction to the unpleasant surroundings. Perhaps
> having the futility of his job pointed out to him was more than he could
> take at that point. I think he just wanted out of that house. I had the
> impression that he wasn't going to visit any more houses, job or not.
>
> Jane
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "ted"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: The Census Taker (spoilers if you haven't read it yet)

> More ambiguity! I love it.
>
> These stories are so lovingly crafted, there is an attention to every detail
> it seems to me that is lacking in typical later Oates, where perhaps words
> are just cheaper? Or where other concerns have come to the forefront- It
> makes me think of the rewrite of Them- these stories would be so different
> from a current JCO.
>
> Two things, besides the crazy(?) girl, remind me of Swamps- the would-be
> census takers sees she is pretty "with an odd trip of the heart"- that
> phrase is somewhere in Swamps but I couldn't find it easily- the young boy
> is the one with the tripping heart in Swamps. This writing reminds me of
> Steinbeck, as well as Faulkner- I was always taken by the way that Steinbeck
> would "objectively" render the inner states and emotions of characters, by
> drily noting their words and actions- I never could quite see how he got me
> so emotionally invested. Faulkner on the other hand tells the story and yet
> you are liable to miss it, as it might well be missed by many of the
> characters in the story, without careful attention to the implications of
> things that don't get a lot of attention in the narrative. And yes, the
> writing has a kind of Washington Irving/Henry James/Nathaniel Hawthorne kind
> of exquisite woodcut quality to it- so masterfully crafted in the New
> England tradition.
>
> The other thing that reminds me of Swamps, is actually in Swamps- the
> Grandfather says "I spose a person got to be married to suffer right?" This
> makes me see a theme of unacknowledged, left-behind life, real life in
> contrast to official life, either the official story on the books at the
> county register, or the acceptable acknowledgeable life from the perspective
> of the good people of the county- and the Grandfather makes no pains to
> belong to this latter group, perhaps from an affinity for or a stubborn
> acknowledgement of those who slip through the cracks?
> Ted
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurie Rendon"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 4:03 PM
Subject: JCO: The Census Taker (spoilers if you haven't read it yet)

> Hi friends!
> I like the later stuff too. It's just different.
> Now I think the walled-in world is the oppressive
> countryside, full of ruts, surrounded by hills
> (obstacles), and without vistas. Of course the girl
> sees life that way too.
> Maybe the five places at the table are supposed to
> be a mystery. The census taker (and we) will never
> know the truth about that family--or about life?
> Thanks Randy for quick action. The previous way
> wasn't a problem for me, but I wouldn't want people to
> quit over it!
> Laurie
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Rouse"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 2:47 AM
Subject: RE: JCO: census taker

> Coming from my own childhood in upstate New York, in the 50's, it is
> not a mystery to me to fathom the extra table setting. As memory
> serves me, the extra place setting is for the departed family member.
> "Set a place for God" is also something I can extract from childhood
> memory. It seems so strange now to even say how this rings true for me
> but it has a comfortable place in my memory nevertheless.
>
> Patricia Rouse
>

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: census taker

> Hi, Patricia. I've heard of that being done in religious orders, but I never realized it was a custom among the lay folks too. Thanks for providing info about an (unfortunately) long-lost folkway. How long after the death was the place usually set? In the Census Taker, then, there would be two extra places: one for the recently-deceased son who was killed in a farm accident; the other for either Grandmother or departed father.
> Cyrano
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurie Rendon"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 9:32 AM
Subject: JCO: census taker

> Hi friends!
> Thanks Patricia for the lesson about the extra
> place setting. I too can remember things from the 50s
> that are no longer done or believed in; to a
> historian, that was another era.
> JCO says this story took place "some time ago"
> (even before the 50s I suppose); the man was on foot,
> and the girl alludes to horses and her walled-in
> world.
> I had heard of a custom among Muslims (but not
> Christians until now!) of setting an extra place at
> the table for absent ones. Probably this is/was a
> daily thing, because at any given time someone is dead
> or absent. No need to set multiple places.
> So in the story, perhaps the extra place is a
> reminder that the census ignores many things that are
> important to a family.
> Laurie
>

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: JCO: census taker

> That would make good sense. The futility of the census -- the protagonist's task -- is the overriding mood of the story. At the end, I had the impression he was dangerously underestimating the coming storm and that he was likely to get caught in it and die.
> Cyrano
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 11:36:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, laurie@betteredit.net writes:
>
> << So in the story, perhaps the extra place is a
> reminder that the census ignores many things that are
> important to a family.
> Laurie >>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Rouse"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 2:02 PM
Subject: RE: JCO: census taker

> Cyrano, Only one place was set, no matter how many family members had
> died. I remember asking my Christian grandmother why was the extra
> place set at the small formica topped table in their kitchen on which
> was always laid out plates and glasses overturned, butter in a covered
> dish, other condiments, in preparation for the next meal. Daily life was
> so routine for meal times and members of the family, I can imagine the
> habit of setting the table in the same way was difficult to break even
> when one family member died. It must have honored the memory of what was
> the past and also welcomed a visitor readily, serving a dual purpose.
> Patricia Rouse
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lara Fitzgerald"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: JCO: census taker

> Yes, I had the same impression. Perhaps then, the extra setting at the table was foreshadowing his death--but that's quite a stretch!
>
> Cyranomish@aol.com wrote:
>
> >That would make good sense. The futility of the census -- the protagonist's >task -- is the overriding mood of the story. At the end, I had the impression >he was dangerously underestimating the coming storm and that he was likely to >get caught in it and die.
> >Cyrano

----- Original Message -----
From: "frank malgesini"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 3:52 PM
Subject: JCO: Census Taker

>
> I haven't read e-mail for a few weeks and I am happy
> and surprised to see the discussion dealing with one
> of my favorite Oates stories, The Census Taker.
>
> This is the first story we read in the JCO course I
> teach and one of the stories that we spend the most
> time on. I think it introduces one of the most typical
> Oates themes, the struggle to make the world
> predictable.
>
> For the Census Taker this is especially important
> because he is so afraid of the real world. It is only
> from behind his official mask as the census taker that
> he can interact at all
>
> The census taker's final action of walking out into
> the storm, like his earlier reduction of reality to
> what is in his book is an example of developing a
> technique for controlling the world. Although by the
> time he leaves he is no longer sure either of his
> system for analyzing the weather or of the census. Or
> rather he knows that the girl is right.
>
> The disturbed girl and the young boy are able to
> demolish his rationalizations like the small boy in
> another fairy tale who pointed out that the Emperor
> had no clothes
>
> The story can be seen as announcing Joyce Carol Oates'
> program. If we look at the whole body of her work, it
> is practically a census of the United States at a
> certain period of its history. But she is telling us
> that her goal of capturing reality is absurd. I think
> that the story is on one level at least about writing
> and the plight of the writer. By the time we have
> reality down it has changed. And we can never get it
> all down anyway.
>
> The fairy tale opening places The Census Taker like
> many of her early stories on an allegorical plane. It
> is interesting that, though Oates was once seen as a
> realistic writer, so many of her early stories are
> obviously fairy tales or allegories.
>
> I wish I had By the North Gate with me here because
> this story is so full of material for conversation.
>
> Frank
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurie Rendon"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 4:42 PM
Subject: JCO: census taker

> Hi friends! Cyrano wrote
>
> > At the
> > end, I had the impression > he was dangerously underestimating the coming storm
> > and that he was likely to > get caught in it and die.
>
> I think so. He seems clueless about life in these
> parts. Why is he an outsider? Was the census
> contracted out to specialists? In my experience it was
> done by locals.
> The immediacy of life--the idea that you can't tell
> the weather until it happens--reminds me of a
> conversation I had with a friend in Korea. I and other
> foreigners were sometimes frustrated by the Koreans'
> lack of planning in some aspects of life. She asked me
> what was wrong with that, and said that until
> recently, "the people just lived."
> Actually, the local family seems to be more aware
> of the past, as people in many places still are today.
> The girl doesn't see any future for herself. Perhaps
> the census taker--the displaced bean
> counter--represents the rational future? Both points
> of view seem pretty dismal in this story.
> I guess we'll all know how to spell census after
> this!
> Laurie
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "KStarrett"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 7:50 PM
Subject: JCO: RE: census taker

> Cyrano wrote
> >
> > > At the
> > > end, I had the impression
> > > he was dangerously underestimating the coming storm
> > > and that he was likely to
> > > get caught in it and die.
>
>
> I have to agree. The census taker's death, it seems, is foreshadowed in the
> first line:
>
> Some time ago in Eden County, in the remote foothills
> of Oriskany, the census taker of that area -- a quiet
> sleepy man in the 38th year of his life -- came one
> day to the last of the houses he was to investigate.
> >
>
> Kim
>

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: census taker

> Thanks again, Patricia. I grew up in the midwest too and I'd forgotten the habit of leaving all the butter and condiment dishes (covered, of course) out on the table between meals because all three daily meals a were usually eaten at home -- restaurants and the early fast-food joints being for special occasions only. Of course, that all changed as the sixies wore on.
> Cyrano
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 4:03:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rousep001@hawaii.rr.com writes:
>
> << Cyrano, Only one place was set, no matter how many family members had
> died. I remember asking my Christian grandmother why was the extra
> place set at the small formica topped table in their kitchen on which
> was always laid out plates and glasses overturned, butter in a covered
> dish, other condiments, in preparation for the next meal. Daily life was
> so routine for meal times and members of the family, I can imagine the
> habit of setting the table in the same way was difficult to break even
> when one family member died. It must have honored the memory of what was
> the past and also welcomed a visitor readily, serving a dual purpose.
> Patricia Rouse >>

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: Census Taker

> Hi, Frank. I guess the CT's decision to walk outside despite the childrens' warning indicates that he hasn't learned from his experience and will die - since, after all, this was the last interview he was to do.
> Cyrano
>

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: census taker

> Hi, Laurie. So true -- the folly of overplanning. Americans are considered quite demented on this topic in other parts of the world.
> Cyrano
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 6:46:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, laurie@betteredit.net writes:
>
> << The immediacy of life--the idea that you can't tell
> the weather until it happens--reminds me of a
> conversation I had with a friend in Korea. I and other
> foreigners were sometimes frustrated by the Koreans'
> lack of planning in some aspects of life. She asked me
> what was wrong with that, and said that until
> recently, "the people just lived."
> >>

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: RE: census taker

> Hi, Kim. I love the ambiguity of that opening paragraph. (It always pays to reread a really good story and see what kind of spin the author put on it from the beginning.) It might mean it was the census taker's last interview for either of two reasons:
> A. He died in the storm
> B. After his eye-opening interview with the family, he decided to stop participating in the futile census-taking process.
>
> The first time I read the story, I thought the line "came one day to the last of the houses he was to investigate" -- meant that the farmhouse was the last house on his list of things to do THAT DAY. Yes, it definitely pays to reread...and re-reread.
> Cyrano
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 9:50:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kstarrett5@comcast.net writes:
>
> << The census taker's death, it seems, is foreshadowed in the
> first line:
> Some time ago in Eden County, in the remote foothills
> of Oriskany, the census taker of that area -- a quiet
> sleepy man in the 38th year of his life -- came one
> day to the last of the houses he was to investigate.
> >
> Kim >>

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: Census Taker

> Hi, again, Frank. When the census taker was talking about the difficulties of listening to so many interviewees(p.28), I thought JCO might be describing her own creative process -- some of its difficulties:
> "There's so much of it to do, so many houses, so many people, faces, that talk to you, that you must talk back to, all the while trying not to fall asleep. You'd wonder how some of us do it." the CT tells the girl.
> "Why don't you just fall asleep?" the girl -- (Rose-Ann) --asks him, and her mother shushes her.
>
> JCO has often referred to her on-going insomnia. How she stays up half the night reading and writing. Cyrano
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 6:18:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frankmalgesini@yahoo.com writes:
>
> << The story can be seen as announcing Joyce Carol Oates’
> program. If we look at the whole body of her work, it
> is practically a census of the United States at a
> certain period of its history. But she is telling us
> that her goal of capturing reality is absurd. I think
> that the story is on one level at least about writing
> and the plight of the writer. By the time we have
> reality down it has changed. And we can never get it
> all down anyway.
> The fairy tale opening places The Census Taker like
> many of her early stories on an allegorical plane. It
> is interesting that, though Oates was once seen as a
> realistic writer, so many of her early stories are
> obviously fairy tales or allegories.
> >>

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: Census Taker

> I was just teaching a class last night on Gogol's "The Overcoat." Discussion focused on how Gogol ends a realistic story about bureaucratic life in early 19th-century St. Petersburgh with a "ghost story" that seems tacked-on. The class thought the ghost story might be an indicator of feelings among the characters in Gogol's story -- feelings which can't be expressed in a realistic manner. It's a very delicate effect to pull off in a story, and I like the way JCO so often does it.
> Cyrano
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 6:18:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frankmalgesini@yahoo.com writes:
>
> << The fairy tale opening places The Census Taker like
> many of her early stories on an allegorical plane. It
> is interesting that, though Oates was once seen as a
> realistic writer, so many of her early stories are
> obviously fairy tales or allegories >>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Charter"
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 5:26 PM
Subject: JCO: Re: Census Taker

Wow! This is the first post that has caused me to want to actually pick something up and read it!
----- Original Message -----
From: frank malgesini
To: jco@usfca.edu
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 5:52 PM
Subject: JCO: Census Taker

I havent read e-mail for a few weeks and I am happy
and surprised to see the discussion dealing with one
of my favorite Oates stories, The Census Taker.

This is the first story we read in the JCO course I
teach and one of the stories that we spend the most
time on. I think it introduces one of the most typical
Oates themes, the struggle to make the world
predictable.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group

The Narator in A Bloodsmoor Romance

2004-12-11T10:33:00.000-06:00

The beginning of this story, with the abduction of Dierdre by a black silken balloon, seemed preposterous (and is never clearly explained), and the style of writing seemed tedious at first. Then after about 50 pages, I began to enjoy the language used by the narrator and to appreciate the parady of a Victorian romance. The narrator writes in a 19th-century style, complete with moralizing sayings, and she has no problem about leaping ahead of her story and then circling back to one of the strings she left hanging. As she tells the story of the five Zinn sisters, she often condemns their behavior. She appears to hold rigid, conformist views of proper behavior and etiquette, all the while making those views seem ridiculous to our more "modern" ways of thinking. Although she tells us the subject is ''Christian marriage, that treasure so ignorantly spurned by three of our young Zinn ladies, in their frenzied quest for their own fortunes in the wide world,'' the real subject seems to be the destiny of women in the 19th century and the ways it has carried on into the present.

Woman in Black

2004-11-22T17:01:00.000-06:00

The woman in black intrigues me. When I read The Falls, I thought she was Nina Olshaker, recognizing Dirk in Royall, making love to Royall as she had not been able to do with his father. On the other hand, the scene in the cemetery is eerie and unreal enough to make a case for her being a phantom. Her diction reminded me of Claudine, but Claudine would have been much older and never would have worn those clothes, and her hair was blond, not black, and she was always impeccably coiffed and never barefoot.

Nina is described as the Woman in Black in the "Before" chapter in part two. "She was the Woman in Black. She was observing him, she was waiting to waylay him. She was patient, relentless. Waiting for him...." Dirk forgot her name and "imagined Death." Maybe the woman in black in the cemetery scene is Death, maybe Royall makes love with Death, but I prefer to think it is Nina twenty years later. On page 286 JCO writes "And there was the woman in black waiting for him...." On the next page she writes "Royall realized that the woman must have been waiting for him." The Woman in Black in Part 2 too closely parallels the woman in black in Part 3 for it to be a coincidence.

I really wanted Ms. Oates to confirm this when I met her at the book signing after her reading at the CHF. However, she did not. Her concern was elsewhere, and I am left to speculate, as I frequently am in the aftermath of her novels.

Niagara Falls

2004-11-16T13:59:00.001-06:00

We had a great time on our trip to Niagara Falls in October. The trees were at the peak of their fall color, and even though the weather was overcast and raining at times, it was an enjoyable visit. We stayed outside of Buffalo, about 20 minutes south of Lockport. The first day we were in the area, we drove up to Lockport and took pictures of the Erie Canal. We went through the little museum at Lockport, Niagara County's Historical Museum. We looked, but could find no mention of Joyce Carol Oates. We almost missed Millersport, which seemed to be just a crossroad on the way to Lockport.

The first day we spent at the falls we stayed on the American side. We walked over the foot bridge to Goat Island, where you can get right up next to the water. The power of the water was mesmerizing as it crashed over the drop off where the Niagara River pours into Lake Ontario. The clouds and the mist added to the allure of the beauty surrounding us. The next day the sun came out and we drove across to the Canadian side. The view from that side is magnificent, although not as up close and personal as the view from Goat Island. The mist was blowing the rain over the sidewalk and road running along the river, like rain. The sun was streaming through it to make a double rainbow.

In contrast to this overwhelming beauty at the falls is the outlying area, the industrial areas around the city of Niagara Falls and the city of Buffalo. JCO describes this so accurately in The Falls. After reading The Falls earlier this fall, I had a yearning to see this marvel for myself, as well as the Millersport/Lockport area that is present in so many JCO stories. The landscape was very much as I expected it to be from my reading. It reminded me of the rural areas in southern Illinois where I grew up, without the great lakes and the magnificent falls, of course.

Last weekend, we drove up to Chicago to see Ms. Oates read from The Falls at the Chicago Humanities Festival. She introduced the book and the characters and then read from the portion where Dirk meets Nina Oshaker and her daughter and drives them to their home in the subdivision near the contaminated Love Canal. She told us that she had not read this section before, and her reading was slightly halting as if reading it for the first time. She paused from time to time to elaborate on different aspects of the passage, which made it feel more personal than it might otherwise have. After the reading she signed books brought up by the audience. When I had my opportunity to speak to her, I wanted to ask her about the woman in black, in the cemetery. She seemed to agree that the woman in black was Nina Olshaker, but when I look back I can see that she did not really answer me because of her concern about all the people in line. She explained that she could not personalize the autographs anymore because of the number of people waiting. She was very gracious and seemed quite practiced at moving people through the line.

J G Ward

By the North Gate: Boys at a Picnic (spoilers)

2004-08-23T15:24:00.000-05:00

I wasn't crazy about this story. JCO presents that nasty side of life, exposing cold-blooded random killers as people, people gone irrevocably wrong in their thinking. Certainly Rafe's thinking is warped.

I think Rafe hallucinated the horse and Dan went along with him, confusing the younger boy. They seem thirsty for something besides beer, but they don't know what it is or how to get it. They move through the countryside killing for meaningless sums of money. As I completed the story I felt deflated and could only hope that they crashed or were caught in one of their crimes in an untold sequel.

Childwold: Off to a slow start

2004-07-22T09:32:00.000-05:00

When I started reading Childwold, I had a problem getting used to the shifting point of view. The story was told through some characters in first person, others in third and still others in second person. It took a while for me to become comfortable with the particular method of expression used with each character.

I see a strong connection between Childwold and The Tattooed Girl, but found reading the latter to be less work and more enjoyable.

JCO Book List

2004-07-22T09:10:00.000-05:00

Click the title of this entry to link to a listing of JCO books compiled from the database at Celestial Timepiece. This links to a listing of JCO novels, updated on February 3, 2005.

Wonderland: Plot Discussion

2004-07-17T09:10:00.000-05:00

It struck me as weird when Jesse's father came to get him early from Jesse's after-school job, just as it struck Jesse and his employer as weird. We know something's going to happen, something has already happened. It is with trepidation that we watch Jesse leave the security of his familiar routine at work to go with his father.

I found it touching that Jesse kept thinking his father coming for him had something to do with Christmas, expectations of things as normal, thinking there might be presents from Montgomery Ward. He is still thinking things are normal as they drive up the familiar drive to the house, as he walks into the warm house, the feeling of home, then the slow realization, the smell....

We want him to run, but he is still taking it in, doesn't move, then his father comes in, and Jesse finally makes his move, dives through the window, runs, escapes....

When I was growing up in a small town in Southern Illinois in the 60s, I remember a family where the father killed everyone except the two older brothers who hid from him while he was on his rampage. He killed himself after giving up on the boys. One was my age, 7th grade, but I didn't know him very well, I don't even remember his name, just what happened to him. I remember everyone talking about how he and his brother stayed out of school after this happened. Eventually the boys came back to school, but I don't remember what happened to them or who they lived with. At the time I couldn't imagine how they must have felt, hiding from their father who just killed their mother and younger siblings. It was easier not to think about it, to forget that such a terrible thing happened. Reading the early parts of Wonderland brought it back to me. Terrible things do happen to children, scarring them in ways we can only imagine. I love the way JCO is able to take us inside such people so that we can know them and understand (sometimes) their actions better than they do themselves.

A Striking Resemblance

2004-07-17T08:58:00.000-05:00

I found a photograph taken by Lewis Carrroll of his Alice in a book on photography. It reminded me immediately of a photograph of JCO that I found on Academy of Achievements: Joyce Carol Oates Interview.
I believe it was also included with the photographs in Invisible Writer. Here are the juxtaposed photographs for those who are interested in comparing the young Alice with the young Joyce:

Foxfire: Plot Discussion

2004-07-17T08:38:00.000-05:00

How seductive Legs is in the beginning; how easy to understand why Maddie and Rita are pulled into her world. How easy to understand why they see the enemy as men, men with power to hurt and cheat those who are weak and can't resist. No wonder Legs seeks revenge for the injustices facing them daily, from the perverted teacher, the nasty uncle. Those men deserved punishment, we feel as we read Maddie's account of the gang's actions, even when the brutality of those actions frightens us as it crosses the line into violence. The "bond of sisterhood" in a world they create without men is gratifying, even though we know it eventually will collapse around them. Although it is impossible to foresee the internal strength of their final victim, we know that the kidnapping plan will backfire from the moment Legs suggests it. It is the "CAPITOL CRIME" they commit, not justified revenge, that brings them down in the end. Fascinating to watch the disintegration of the gang and the final flight from justice in Lightning Bolt, the aptly named car that Legs acquires and the girls decorate to make their own. Just some thoughts as I contemplate this story before moving on to my next JCO exploration of humanity.